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	<title>Comments on: The Golden Horseshoe Award:  Jaworowski and the vast CO2 conspiracy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=7" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7</link>
	<description>Now you've made the baby Feynman cry.  I hope you're proud of yourself.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-118330</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-118330</guid>
		<description>Zowie, &lt;b&gt;JamesG,&lt;/b&gt; you really blew the lid off the Keeling curve with that comment!  Even now, Charles David Keeling's ghost is slapping his forehead:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Holy COW!  Mauna Loa is a volcano?  Who knew?  And volcanos emit CARBON DIOXIDE?? Jeez, how could I have been so stupid?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
As you say, "Really funny!" -- though not, perhaps, in the way you intended.
&lt;p&gt;
Try reading &lt;a href="http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/program_history/keeling_curve_lessons.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;this.&lt;/a&gt;  Or, more generally, &lt;a href="http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf" rel="nofollow"&gt;this.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zowie, <b>JamesG,</b> you really blew the lid off the Keeling curve with that comment!  Even now, Charles David Keeling&#8217;s ghost is slapping his forehead:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Holy COW!  Mauna Loa is a volcano?  Who knew?  And volcanos emit CARBON DIOXIDE?? Jeez, how could I have been so stupid?
</p></blockquote>
<p>As you say, &#8220;Really funny!&#8221; &#8212; though not, perhaps, in the way you intended.</p>
<p>
Try reading <a href="http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/program_history/keeling_curve_lessons.html" rel="nofollow">this.</a>  Or, more generally, <a href="http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf" rel="nofollow">this.</a></p>
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		<title>By: JamesG</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-118276</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-118276</guid>
		<description>I've just discovered this post. In reply to the last comment, I must say it's comical in retrospect to see Rabett now claim that some observations can be assumed to be bad after his spirited defense of obviously bad measurements in the GISS global temperature reconstruction. Not much evidence there of his "theory of large numbers" or his "we can correct it with software" defenses. Not much evidence either of the line taken at realclimate.org that it was just "bad science to throw out data". Instead we get a fly-by attack of why this particular data should have been thrown out - because they were taken in large towns and might therefore be contaminated. Shock horror! Like the vast majority of temperature measurements you mean Eli? Just a coincidence we had a peak in the 40's and it went back down until the 60's - exactly like the global temperature trend.

It's also illuminating to see that neither Callander, nor Keeling had a clue about the carbon cycle - in Keelings own words. He even thought there was less CO2 contamination on an island in the middle of the pacific on top of a volcano. Really funny!

What is absolutely clear is that many people start with a theory then they find ways of confirming it by excluding data that doesn't agree and keeping data that does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just discovered this post. In reply to the last comment, I must say it&#8217;s comical in retrospect to see Rabett now claim that some observations can be assumed to be bad after his spirited defense of obviously bad measurements in the GISS global temperature reconstruction. Not much evidence there of his &#8220;theory of large numbers&#8221; or his &#8220;we can correct it with software&#8221; defenses. Not much evidence either of the line taken at realclimate.org that it was just &#8220;bad science to throw out data&#8221;. Instead we get a fly-by attack of why this particular data should have been thrown out - because they were taken in large towns and might therefore be contaminated. Shock horror! Like the vast majority of temperature measurements you mean Eli? Just a coincidence we had a peak in the 40&#8217;s and it went back down until the 60&#8217;s - exactly like the global temperature trend.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also illuminating to see that neither Callander, nor Keeling had a clue about the carbon cycle - in Keelings own words. He even thought there was less CO2 contamination on an island in the middle of the pacific on top of a volcano. Really funny!</p>
<p>What is absolutely clear is that many people start with a theory then they find ways of confirming it by excluding data that doesn&#8217;t agree and keeping data that does.</p>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-85350</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-85350</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the best introduction to why Beck is mistaken was given by &lt;a href="http://rabett.blogspot.com/2006/10/amateur-night.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Eli Rabett.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the best introduction to why Beck is mistaken was given by <a href="http://rabett.blogspot.com/2006/10/amateur-night.html" rel="nofollow">Eli Rabett.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gwynne Dyer</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-85246</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwynne Dyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-85246</guid>
		<description>I have read right through this correspondence, and several time reference is made to Ernst-Georg Beck's recent paper on the values for atmospheric CO2 reported by scientists using chemical measurement methods in the 19th and early 20th centuries, which are quite different from those that underpin the IPCC assumptions.  I have read the ten-page translation of the draft on several sites, and to a non-scientist it looks as though there is a case to answer there, but the answer is never given.  The discussion just slides past it, which makes me uneasy.  (In one instance, it is called a "crank" paper, but without explanation.)  

Can someone tell me why Beck's paper should be ignored?  What are the flaws that invalidate the observations of all these scientists?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read right through this correspondence, and several time reference is made to Ernst-Georg Beck&#8217;s recent paper on the values for atmospheric CO2 reported by scientists using chemical measurement methods in the 19th and early 20th centuries, which are quite different from those that underpin the IPCC assumptions.  I have read the ten-page translation of the draft on several sites, and to a non-scientist it looks as though there is a case to answer there, but the answer is never given.  The discussion just slides past it, which makes me uneasy.  (In one instance, it is called a &#8220;crank&#8221; paper, but without explanation.)  </p>
<p>Can someone tell me why Beck&#8217;s paper should be ignored?  What are the flaws that invalidate the observations of all these scientists?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Swanson</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-83589</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Swanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-83589</guid>
		<description>I just found your site today and tried to scan quickly.  As a geologist (and Lutheran),  who sometimes hunts for responses to take on creationist arguments, I really appreciate reading some of the comments above by you and others.

Keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found your site today and tried to scan quickly.  As a geologist (and Lutheran),  who sometimes hunts for responses to take on creationist arguments, I really appreciate reading some of the comments above by you and others.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: dhogaza</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-75168</link>
		<dc:creator>dhogaza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-75168</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Because, looking at the theory of evolution we are presented with a very plausible explanation of how life on earth could have formed and I believe it an brilliant hypothesis for scientific working, but applying hard standards - and I am strictly refering to Karl Popper (Logik der Forschung 1934 and Der Elend des Historizismus 1936) - can not be classified as a scientific theory (just like psychoanalysis or historic marxism), because it does not allow falsification.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I assume you're unware that Popper some time afterwards recognized that he was wrong, and agreed with biologists that evolutionary theory is indeed falsifiable.

For some reason which I have a hard time understanding (cough cough) creationists are always eager to quote Popper's initial conclusion, but never point out that later, Popper recanted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Because, looking at the theory of evolution we are presented with a very plausible explanation of how life on earth could have formed and I believe it an brilliant hypothesis for scientific working, but applying hard standards - and I am strictly refering to Karl Popper (Logik der Forschung 1934 and Der Elend des Historizismus 1936) - can not be classified as a scientific theory (just like psychoanalysis or historic marxism), because it does not allow falsification.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I assume you&#8217;re unware that Popper some time afterwards recognized that he was wrong, and agreed with biologists that evolutionary theory is indeed falsifiable.</p>
<p>For some reason which I have a hard time understanding (cough cough) creationists are always eager to quote Popper&#8217;s initial conclusion, but never point out that later, Popper recanted.</p>
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		<title>By: site admin</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-71250</link>
		<dc:creator>site admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-71250</guid>
		<description>Ben - You deserve credit for reading and thinking about the issue.
The depth of the firn-ice transition is dependent on the deposition history of the location where the core is taken.  Many heavy, dry snowfalls result in a deep snow layer above the point where pressure closes off the gas bubbles in the ice.  Wet snow will close off more quickly, and results in a lesser depth for the transition.  It all depends on the particular circumstances of that core, and so it is &lt;b&gt;determined experimentally.&lt;/b&gt;  There is nothing special about the 83 year lag.  For example, in another core Neftel and Friedli &lt;a href="http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/siple.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;measured a different lag:&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
On the basis of porosity measurements, investigators determined that the time lag between the mean age of the gas and the age of the ice was 95 years and that the duration of the close-off process was 22 years (Schwander and Stauffer 1984).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
NB:  Neftel &#038; Friedli determined the depth and age of the firn-ice transition &lt;b&gt;independently&lt;/b&gt; of any assumption about what the "right" age might be.  There has been a great deal of &lt;a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/271/5256/1708" rel="nofollow"&gt;good research&lt;/a&gt; on gas mixing in snow columns, some of which Jaworowski cites, so he is obviously aware of it.  Yet he persists in claiming that estimates of the firn-ice transition age are "arbitrary", a claim he knows to be false.
&lt;br /&gt;
Your second point is off-topic, but worth a brief response.  It is simply not true that evolution is not falsifiable.  Evolutionary theory has made many, many specific predictions, the failure of any one of which would have falsified its central proposition.  Yet, every one of those predictions has been borne out.  Do we see ancestors and descendants in the same strata?  Nope.  Do we see the same fossil sequence in columns from widely separated areas, dated by independent means?  Yep.  Most tellingly, when DNA was discovered, the genetic evidence confirmed relationships already observed from fossils and the morphology of living species.  Any way you cut it, evolutionary theory is falsifiable -- and is not false.  It is an old, old criticism, and has been flogged to death, so enough of that.  See the &lt;a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA211.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;FAQ&lt;/a&gt; for a thorough discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben - You deserve credit for reading and thinking about the issue.<br />
The depth of the firn-ice transition is dependent on the deposition history of the location where the core is taken.  Many heavy, dry snowfalls result in a deep snow layer above the point where pressure closes off the gas bubbles in the ice.  Wet snow will close off more quickly, and results in a lesser depth for the transition.  It all depends on the particular circumstances of that core, and so it is <b>determined experimentally.</b>  There is nothing special about the 83 year lag.  For example, in another core Neftel and Friedli <a href="http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/siple.htm" rel="nofollow">measured a different lag:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
On the basis of porosity measurements, investigators determined that the time lag between the mean age of the gas and the age of the ice was 95 years and that the duration of the close-off process was 22 years (Schwander and Stauffer 1984).
</p></blockquote>
<p>NB:  Neftel &#038; Friedli determined the depth and age of the firn-ice transition <b>independently</b> of any assumption about what the &#8220;right&#8221; age might be.  There has been a great deal of <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/271/5256/1708" rel="nofollow">good research</a> on gas mixing in snow columns, some of which Jaworowski cites, so he is obviously aware of it.  Yet he persists in claiming that estimates of the firn-ice transition age are &#8220;arbitrary&#8221;, a claim he knows to be false.<br />
<br />
Your second point is off-topic, but worth a brief response.  It is simply not true that evolution is not falsifiable.  Evolutionary theory has made many, many specific predictions, the failure of any one of which would have falsified its central proposition.  Yet, every one of those predictions has been borne out.  Do we see ancestors and descendants in the same strata?  Nope.  Do we see the same fossil sequence in columns from widely separated areas, dated by independent means?  Yep.  Most tellingly, when DNA was discovered, the genetic evidence confirmed relationships already observed from fossils and the morphology of living species.  Any way you cut it, evolutionary theory is falsifiable &#8212; and is not false.  It is an old, old criticism, and has been flogged to death, so enough of that.  See the <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA211.html" rel="nofollow">FAQ</a> for a thorough discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-71191</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-71191</guid>
		<description>I am sorry to engage so late into this discussion, but I only today stumbled across J's article and was quite impressed by your brilliant analysis, though it seems you and J at least share your affection for the odd polemcis.

I am not a natural scientist so please do excuse if it takes time for me to undestand certain issuses. I took the liberty to look up certain extras you posted in your first article. And am for the beginning left with some questions:
In his reply to J's ESPR article (however small and well hidden it might have been) Hans Öschinger drawing attention to some misunderstandings or misinterpretations from J's side states: "Another example concerns the gas-occlusion process in firn and young ice. This process has been studied in detail theoretically and experimentally. The theory of diffusion of gases in firn and the occlusion at the firn-ice transition has been confirmed impressively by the detection of a gravitational enrichment of the heavier gases and of the heavier isotopes of a gas. This enrichment depends, in the first instance, on the depth of the firn-ice transition." He seems to be referring to to J's claim that : "The age of the gas recovered from 1 to 10 grams of ice was arbitrarily decreed to be exactly 83 years younger than the ice in which it was trapped! This was not supported by any experimental evidence, but only by assumptions which were in conflict with the facts." (Quoted from the 2007 EIR article, p. 43 - see as well: Figure 2 (a) and (b) p. 44) Does Öschinger thereby agree to the fact that gas in ice probes is 83 years younger than the surrounding ice?
For if he would, it does seem slightly "contradictory" to Geerts and Linarce (Ice cores, CO2 concentrations and climat) claim that "It appears that the air bubbles trapped in the ice represent the atmospheric composition at the time of &lt;b&gt;snow deposition &lt;/b&gt;, [in other words gas diffusion through the ice is negligible.]" It is clear as daylight that the decisive point for the authors is the fact that ice probes are a legitimate source of information about past times' climate, but they never the less seem to implicit contradict Öschingers statement (if he wasn't argueing the 83 years thing and "snow deposition" by chance does not take 83 years).

My second point refers to Peter's, Dave's and admin's 8th/9th May discussion on creationists and denier of climate change.
I think it is a rather backfiring business to compare those two ideas, especially if you are supportive to the idea of climate change. Why is that? Because, looking at the theory of evolution we are presented with a very plausible explanation of how life on earth could have formed and I believe it an brilliant hypothesis for scientific working, but applying hard standards - and I am strictly refering to Karl Popper (Logik der Forschung 1934 and Der Elend des Historizismus 1936) - can not be classified as a scientific theory (just like psychoanalysis or historic marxism), because it does not allow falsification.
Whereas the theory of climate change very well allows falsification. After all that's on of the reasons there's this blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry to engage so late into this discussion, but I only today stumbled across J&#8217;s article and was quite impressed by your brilliant analysis, though it seems you and J at least share your affection for the odd polemcis.</p>
<p>I am not a natural scientist so please do excuse if it takes time for me to undestand certain issuses. I took the liberty to look up certain extras you posted in your first article. And am for the beginning left with some questions:<br />
In his reply to J&#8217;s ESPR article (however small and well hidden it might have been) Hans Öschinger drawing attention to some misunderstandings or misinterpretations from J&#8217;s side states: &#8220;Another example concerns the gas-occlusion process in firn and young ice. This process has been studied in detail theoretically and experimentally. The theory of diffusion of gases in firn and the occlusion at the firn-ice transition has been confirmed impressively by the detection of a gravitational enrichment of the heavier gases and of the heavier isotopes of a gas. This enrichment depends, in the first instance, on the depth of the firn-ice transition.&#8221; He seems to be referring to to J&#8217;s claim that : &#8220;The age of the gas recovered from 1 to 10 grams of ice was arbitrarily decreed to be exactly 83 years younger than the ice in which it was trapped! This was not supported by any experimental evidence, but only by assumptions which were in conflict with the facts.&#8221; (Quoted from the 2007 EIR article, p. 43 - see as well: Figure 2 (a) and (b) p. 44) Does Öschinger thereby agree to the fact that gas in ice probes is 83 years younger than the surrounding ice?<br />
For if he would, it does seem slightly &#8220;contradictory&#8221; to Geerts and Linarce (Ice cores, CO2 concentrations and climat) claim that &#8220;It appears that the air bubbles trapped in the ice represent the atmospheric composition at the time of <b>snow deposition </b>, [in other words gas diffusion through the ice is negligible.]&#8221; It is clear as daylight that the decisive point for the authors is the fact that ice probes are a legitimate source of information about past times&#8217; climate, but they never the less seem to implicit contradict Öschingers statement (if he wasn&#8217;t argueing the 83 years thing and &#8220;snow deposition&#8221; by chance does not take 83 years).</p>
<p>My second point refers to Peter&#8217;s, Dave&#8217;s and admin&#8217;s 8th/9th May discussion on creationists and denier of climate change.<br />
I think it is a rather backfiring business to compare those two ideas, especially if you are supportive to the idea of climate change. Why is that? Because, looking at the theory of evolution we are presented with a very plausible explanation of how life on earth could have formed and I believe it an brilliant hypothesis for scientific working, but applying hard standards - and I am strictly refering to Karl Popper (Logik der Forschung 1934 and Der Elend des Historizismus 1936) - can not be classified as a scientific theory (just like psychoanalysis or historic marxism), because it does not allow falsification.<br />
Whereas the theory of climate change very well allows falsification. After all that&#8217;s on of the reasons there&#8217;s this blog.</p>
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		<title>By: a biologist</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-68279</link>
		<dc:creator>a biologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-68279</guid>
		<description>just one sentence (which u can tear out of context as much as u like but still remains true)
CO2 is the basis of visible life on earth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>just one sentence (which u can tear out of context as much as u like but still remains true)<br />
CO2 is the basis of visible life on earth</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/?p=7#comment-61250</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.someareboojums.org/blog/index.php/archives/2005/02/27/jaworowski-and-the-vast-cosub2sub-conspiracy/#comment-61250</guid>
		<description>Site Admin,
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I have some familiarity with congressional testimony, so I can say that it includes much more than what is provided in hearings and may not include everything submitted. With that, I request unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks, and I yield the floor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Site Admin,<br />
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I have some familiarity with congressional testimony, so I can say that it includes much more than what is provided in hearings and may not include everything submitted. With that, I request unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks, and I yield the floor.</p>
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